Stuff White People Say

November 2, 2008

“Welcome to America”

Filed under: Uncategorized — jwbe @ 1:29 pm

Here comes the special tourist guide for travelling through America:

God bless America

American Eagle

America is the greatest nation on earth. Just in case you don’t know. We have a rich culture and we are the most multicultural nation on earth. We are the melting pot where we all come together.

Reservation

and where we stand united

Katrina

We are very open-minded and value the differences of our cultures and honor for example Native Americans with our mascots for schools and football teams. We of course respect different traditions, look right here: Link

You can find Schloss Neuschwanstein in Disney World and why travel to Germany when we have a really cool Bavarian village in Washington State? Leavenworth

Nonetheless we like to travel around the world:
Check it out:
American military

Our democracy is so unique that we want to invade invite the rest of the world to become so blessed.
Testing in Nevada
Nuclear testing Nevada

And as Bush already mentioned, we are the defenders of human rights. “Respect for human dignity and individual freedoms reaffirms a core tenet of civilized people everywhere. This important observance honoring our Bill of Rights and advocating human rights around the world allows all Americans to celebrate the universal principles of liberty and justice that define our dreams and shape our hopes as we face the challenges of a new era.”
Death Penalty

Other nations are just jealous of our freedom.
American Freedom

And the people we are really feel sorry about are the Germans. Imagine, they don’t have freedom of speech. You can’t paint a swastika at the walls for example, unless you want to become a political prisoner of Germany. In America we don’t have this, we have freedom of speech. At least, we think so: Challenged/banned books

(and as an additional travelling tip: Don’t wear saggy pants if you are not sure about the laws, in some counties you can go to prison for this): “Proposals to ban saggy pants are starting to ride up in several places. At the extreme end, wearing pants low enough to show boxers or bare buttocks in one small Louisiana town means six months in jail and a $500 fine.”

And unlike some other nations we are proud of our history, you will find many examples where we are proud when you travel through America, you know, we will tell you, but here just one example:
For a taste of history and the Old South, try visiting on of the many Louisiana plantations on your next vacation, especially around Baton Rouge and New Orleans. There are even some fine Southern Louisiana plantations worth visiting around Lafayette.  Many of the elegant, sprawling, historical landmarks offer tours where you can experience the taste of the South before the Civil War. ”

Of course, living in such a diverse nation like America does have it’s challenges. So I don’t want to hide the advise of Mr. Macon D to be really multikulti and to appear anti-racist as a white person. Appearing anti-racist is very import in America.
So you have to fist bump Black people, bow, if you meet an Asian looking person, say “how” to Native Americans and Salem Aleikum to Muslim-looking people.

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14 Comments »

  1. Damn! You are one bunch of sick fucks! You have devoted 75% (a rough guess) of your posts to talking about macon d’s blog. You know, he ain’t the only white person who has something to say about anti-racism; but from the looks of this blog, you would think that he is. You are all delusional. You ruin the good points that you make in your posts on this blog by placing most of your attention on the stuffwhitepeopledo (macon d’s) blog.

    And, NO, I am not macon d. And, YES, I am a reader of his blog. And, YES, I am a person of color. And, YES, I choose to remain anonymous.

    Comment by anonymous — November 3, 2008 @ 10:06 pm | Reply

  2. while I mention one of Macon’s problematic thoughts, this post isn’t about Macon’s blog, so why here and now calling us sick fucks?

    Comment by jwbe — November 3, 2008 @ 11:43 pm | Reply

  3. jwbe —

    My previous comment was not talking specifically to this post, but to this blog. You and the other two writers here devote waaaaaaay too much of your blog’s space to criticizing and nitpicking and playing the the silly game of semantics in regards to macon d’s blog. Why? Is he the only anti-racist white person who, as per you and yours, doesn’t write about it, think about it, perfectly? without flaws? Why do you only criticize macon d? Why don’t you criticize Tim Wise? Tim Wise isn’t perfect, too. (You should check out the Black Agenda Report website, for there, someone had the guts to criticize Mr. Wise. You should read the comments section, too.)

    Anyway, I think you make your arguments petty when you zoom the focus of so many of them (I’m talking not just about this post, but many of the other posts on this blog) in on the stuffwhitepeopledo blog.

    Comment by anonymous — November 4, 2008 @ 6:55 pm | Reply

  4. Of white antiracists, I’ve criticized only Macon D so far, because what he writes seems racist to me. I have not criticized Tim Wise because I usually find his writings awesome. However, I will check out Black Agenda Report and search for criticisms of Tim Wise, because you have piqued my interest. (If you have any specific posts in mind that criticize Tim Wise, please post the links.)

    I also have to add that from my perspective, your criticism is the opposite of another criticism I get, which is, “You are attacking Macon D because he is white.” Yours is, “Why don’t you attack other white people besides Macon D?” That your criticism seems like the opposite of other people’s criticism, doesn’t invalidate it. I just wanted to note that the two types of criticisms come from two different perspectives, and neither are my perspective.

    Comment by Restructure! — November 5, 2008 @ 12:45 am | Reply

  5. Why don’t you criticize Tim Wise?

    That’s a stupid question. You show me where Tim Wise has done/said the kind of things Macon has or you can STFU!! As far as Black Agenda Report… I’ve already read the commentary there and the lame arguments in the commentary required nothing close to “guts.” The least the author there could have done was actually formed an argument based on something real. Obviously, you didn’t read the comments section. There were commenters on BAR who had the “guts” to criticize the author of the intellectually lazy and sloppy “criticisms” of Wise — criticisms that hardly meshed with the reality of what Wise said or does.

    Now I’ve seen criticisms of Wise in other places that at least have some basis in perceived fact. One such criticism questioned how action-oriented Wise is. I am, however, aware of criticism of Wise which said “Wise didn’t go far enough” and basically soft-pedaled a criticism of White culture, so to speak. I agreed with it.

    One of the comments to the BAR commentary was posted Paul Street, if I remember correctly. I tend to agree with plenty of things he says but I’m critical of him too as well as BAR which would be the closest thing to where I stand ideologically but I’m critical of them too and have been. This blog, however, is not about that.

    To answer your “why” question… First, you’d have to do a more accurate count of the threads I’ve started here. Second, when this blog was started, the three of us were posting regularly on Macon’s blog and, as a result to the things we discussed there, this blog was formed. Macon’s blog happens to be the one we have an experience with and so we decided (actually JW and Restructure discussed it amongst themselves first) to write about our experience and the issues that came out of it.

    Now please answer the question addressed to you.

    You decided to comment ON THIS POST/THREAD, a thread that had NOTHING to do with Macon crying about us talking about Macon. What kind of fool nonsense is that? All you’re doing is encouraging us to stop talking about other subjects to turn around on a thread that ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE to talk about Macon.

    Also, please explain why you’re here crying like a little baby about Macon. Why are you so hurt? Why are you such a sick f-ck you couldn’t even post your gripe on a thread that was about something Macon said? Want attention much?

    Also, why the hell do you think what you think about our arguments should ever mean something to us?

    I think you make your arguments petty when you zoom the focus of so many of them

    Who here amongst the three of us do you honestly think gives a f-ck? It’s obviously clear that the arguments we make are ones you can’t f-ck with. That’s why you’ve settled on the crying game. Instead of showing the flaws and imperfections in our criticisms… you figure crying and emotions, smoke and mirrors (re: BAR and the sorry commentary you called “guts” when it was closer to “nuts” in the way the uninformed author tried to insult people’s intelligence with the arguments she created out of thin air).

    Which is funny… the blogger/poster “One Drop” from Too Sense tried to label me as someone who has a problem with Whites talking about racism. If anything, that’s a fitting description for the BAR commentary you’re referring to. Nothing else explains the way the author spoke so much about what can only be her uninformed perceptions of Wise vs. actual issues she has with things Wise actually did/said.

    I mean, you could tell by the cheesy title of the commentary alone just how ignorant (i.e. uninformed and “petty”) the author (Shannon Prince) was/is. Now stop being stupid and trying to insult my intelligence with this bs. Seriously, with comments like this in response to Princes commentary… WTH are you wanting us to go to BAR to read them for? Just to find out how you tried to play a game you knew you would lose?

    ____________________________________________________________________
    Superficial, Reactionary …
    written by witness , October 22, 2008

    I tried to follow ur critique though is seemed to ramble… & then “I’m a creationist who believes the world was literally made in six days.” So I stopped reading.
    ____________________________________________________________________

    Response
    written by RhondaCoca , October 22, 2008

    I hear what you are saying Shannon Joyce Prince. The fundamentals of your argument make a lot of sense however I feel like I understand what Tim Wise was actually saying and I would not define it as hate!…
    ____________________________________________________________________

    White boy’s Arguement Much Stronger
    written by Anti-Cracker , October 22, 2008

    Wow sister! That was wack!

    From what I see, you over react. And it looks like you’re tryin to be slick. As though you want to try entertain us with your critique of the white boy. I think, because most all of your developmental relations have been with white people, you believe you know white people, inside and out. But sorry sister; You don’t.
    ____________________________________________________________________
    tim wise
    written by bcw , October 22, 2008

    i read tim wise`s article. i thought it was very good. as 58 year black male who lives in the rural south i have heard white working / lower / middle class people make pro facist comments over the years. also my mother once worked for a rich lady who hated white trash and democrats and who would probabily support a right wing coup…
    ____________________________________________________________________
    What’s wrong with condemning racist lifestyle?
    written by George Thompson , October 22, 2008

    “All communities produce a diversity of good and evil, wise and ignorant.” This is certainly true but in the larger scope of events Mr. Wise is attempting to expose the specter of white privilege because many white people claim that it does not exist. It does exists and does great harm to people of color all over the world. For you to say that he belittles their lifestyles is to not acknowledge the fact that racism and sexism is part of their lifestyle. Mr. Wise denigrates when it is appropriate…
    ____________________________________________________________________
    Appreciate the Viewpoint; Respectfully Disagree
    written by Ingemar Smith , October 22, 2008

    I wanted to stop reading at the all communities produce a diversity of good and evil line but I made it through to the end.

    However, that line embodies the essential problem with the article and the entire line of thinking. White supremacy, the offspring of American capitalism, is a real thing. And because it is a real thing we must reject statements that attempt to equate Black and white communities/populations as if we’re all just folk now…
    ______________________________________________________________________

    Now you count them up for me. At first glance, I see as many or more post finding fault with Prince’s “weak” (and they were incredibly weak) arguments than there are those that support her’s. But even if all 26 of the comments patted Prince on the back… don’t run behind her.

    Show us you got some “guts” and make substantive criticisms…. crying not included… against the criticisms we’ve made against the flaws (what an admission!) in Macon’s posts.

    Comment by Nquest — November 5, 2008 @ 1:00 am | Reply

  6. Interesting. I checked out Shannon Prince vs. Tim Wise, Tim Wise’s How Fascism Comes, and Shannon Prince’s Word to the Wise. Here are some things that come to my mind:

    * I’ve never seen Wise that vicious (rebuttal). Although it seemed quite off-putting and pretentious in the beginning, I started to laugh out loud later, because it’s so vicious, it’s amusing.

    * Some of Wise’s recent articles, especially that one (original article), don’t really appeal to me. It seems like he is writing for a more general audience. I prefer logically structured arguments to pseudo-poetic rhetoric full of visual imagery that preaches to the white liberal converted.

    * That Wise article (original) isn’t that good, and Prince makes some good points about stereotyping. Wise himself probably doesn’t think the same as how the article will be read, which is why it’s problematic. People will interpret persuasive poetry through their own biased lenses, and come to their own conclusions, which is why I prefer logically structured arguments. For me, I think Wise means to debunk the stereotype that fascists look like Nazis, arguing that fascism will come from people who look prototypical “ordinary” Americans (versus “strange”, scary, and foreign). However, Prince means to debunk the stereotype that fascists look like white rural conservatives, arguing that fascists can look like white urban liberals. I understand that on average, the fascists will be the small town white conservatives, but I’m uncomfortable with that level of extreme stereotyping. As it wasn’t a logically structured essay, I’ll say that the associative/imagery focus was too much on superficial qualities of the would-be fascists, which would miss the point. I’m not saying that Wise is missing his own point, but that because of the way the essay is written (i.e., interpretable, associative, full of metaphor), the meaning it conveys is unclear and misses the point.

    * On the other hand, Wise’s vicious rebuttal is nice and logical. I prefer this style.

    —-

    In any case, Prince’s criticism of Wise is not that he is writing something racist about people of colour. I myself am a secular urban left-wing Canadian of colour, so maybe I am biased and don’t care too much about Christian-fundamentalist rural conservative White Americans being stereotyped as racist. However, when Macon D writes something about people of colour that is racist, it strikes me as a much more important issue; it affects me directly and draws/demands my attention.

    Comment by Restructure! — November 5, 2008 @ 2:04 am | Reply

  7. * Some of Wise’s recent articles, especially that one (original article), don’t really appeal to me.

    That’s exactly how I felt about the article and I agree on with you on preferring more logic filled vs. emotional arguments. His most recent entry at Red Room is an emotional appeal to undecided voters. So not only was he not talking to me but he was also speaking primarily from an emotional or moralizing perspective which I find non-compelling coming from anyone in most cases.

    Speaking of being “vicious”, I’ve had that thought before reading Wise and I believe I’ve told JW about it. I don’t know if I was ever interested in the “fascism” essay enough to really make a determination but when Prince tried to act like Wise narrowly stereotyped racists as those from a certain class or what-have-you… I dismissed it out-of-hand because I knew from the little bit of Wise’s essay I read before reading Prince’s included more than just the stereotypes McCain-Palin (and before them the Clinton campaign) promoted as “real Americans”, etc.

    And, see… that’s the issue with Prince’s commentary. The whole context is situated in the political climate that came out of the McCain-Palin rallies where, of all things, Sen. Obama was called a socialist and had his name mentioned in sentences with Hitler and Castro — i.e. “fascism.” Prince’s commentary acted as if Wise’s essay existed in a vacuum and was, of all things, poorly constructed, logically, because of the kinds of assumptions and sweeping statements she made especially because she ignored the context and choose to make broad statements that were problematic themselves. She practically went to the other extreme.

    But it was all pretty boring to me because those emotion-first, moralizing-first arguments don’t appeal to me or impress me.

    I also agree with you, Restructure, about Wise’s rebuttal. Maybe I’ll look up the essays Wise wrote that didn’t get the thumbs up from me, whether they were on topics that didn’t interest me or ones that I thought were vicious/self-loathing or a “white thing.”

    I know there are some things Robert Jensen has written that I call “corky” because the attempt is to appeal to Whites and in a manner (emotional and logical) that didn’t seem like a compelling argument to me but obviously was never meant for me anyway…

    Comment by Nquest — November 5, 2008 @ 3:16 am | Reply

  8. Hi jwbe, from what I gather, you are a German woman living outside of Germany. Britain? I’m kind of curious as to why a good deal of your latest post seem to be about America’s issues. Are you currently in the U.S? Could you write more articles on racism in Europe?.

    As far as Macon D, I don’t see that this blog is about him. It’s about stuff white people say and (surprise, surprise) Macon is white. He provides plenty of examples of the sort of back-door liberal racism that doesn’t get discussed very much. Stuff that we should all be aware of. Doesn’t mean you have to discount all of what he and others like him have said. The 3 author’s of this blog do help to uncover some of the implicit assumptions in a lot of the old arguments and that is very important if we are to move the dialog forward.

    Found about 5 more books on Critical Thinking on a site called Demonoid and Isohunt. You’ll need to know how to use torrents, though.

    Comment by HardLearn — November 5, 2008 @ 6:21 am | Reply

  9. From the “Say It Again” files…

    “…Doesn’t mean you have to discount all of what he and others like him have said.”

    I hope people understand that. Thanks for saying that so clearly, HardLearn.

    Comment by nquest2xl — November 5, 2008 @ 6:39 am | Reply

  10. Hi jwbe, from what I gather, you are a German woman living outside of Germany. Britain? I’m kind of curious as to why a good deal of your latest post seem to be about America’s issues. Are you currently in the U.S? Could you write more articles on racism in Europe?.

    no, I am German living in Germany.
    America impacts the entire world and I think it is my right as somebody affected by American politics to also write about how America is viewed from outside. Something else why I read and write on American msbs is covered on Nquest’s blog:
    http://nquest2xl.wordpress.com/2008/07/18/changing-hearts-and-minds-is-not-enough/

    Racism in Europe means racism on a continent, there are attempts to find common solutions within the EU, but racism and also laws within the individual countries differ according history. But yes I can try to write about Germany

    Comment by jwbe — November 5, 2008 @ 5:03 pm | Reply

  11. anonymous, it’s not about ‘flaws’.
    Macon D is the very typical liberal white and his blog is an example of the inner complications of a white who is not willing or able to challenge his racism first before he starts writing about racism/anti-racism with the attempt of educating others.
    Macon has the nerve to say that he still doesn’t know his “white part”, but at the same time he wants to be the admired expert. Which is, just as information, also a very typical white tendency. Know nothing but call yourself expert.

    Thats also the reason why people like him become so easily offended and defensive. Somebody who doesn’t stand on solid ground is constantly afraid of falling deep.
    That’s also the reason I think why Macon doesn’t want us three on his blog. He knows that we look behind his fassade and even dare mention that.
    His blog is the collection of “what white liberals seem to be but if you watch you discover what they really are”.

    Wise, Jensen or Secours are very different. Nobody of them is perfect and I also don’t agree with all what they write. I like Secours most, perhaps also because she is a woman and because I can detect the temper in her writings sometimes, similar to mine when I become angry or ran out of patience. To see somebody professional doing this is for me a relief. Jensen is nice. He is a buddy and more of a philosopher and I personally also think that he is quite humble, at least he comes across that way. And Tim Wise, I do not need the guts to criticize somebody, I do need a reason. The reason for me is not to find agreement with every detail, but the greater picture.
    Tim Wise has a deeper understanding of issues and is also capable of transporting this knowledge.

    You know, the funny thing with Macon is that his ‘fans’ look with him down on those they consider as racist. But they are unable or so to see, that Macon is sometimes exactly displaying what he criticizes in others.
    Just one example, because he actually just did it again:
    In his post “refuse to see how things look from another point of view” he writes:

    More to the point, she also demonstrates a common white tendency in such discussions–refusing to see or consider how something looks from another, non-white point of view, and then judging that thing from a limited white perspective.

    I wrote to him: “And when this common white tendency comes up in yourself and becomes visible in some of your posts you have a big problem with realizing your own white limited perspective. Why?”

    His answer:
    jw, I have noticed this common white tendency in myself, and I know that my white perspective is limited. However, to my recollection, I know of no places on my blog where I’ve demonstrated a refusal to see and/or listen to how something non-white looks from another (non-white) point of view, while at the same time judging that non-white thing negatively, neither in a post here nor in comments.

    In short: He is just lying. He was never open-minded to all the legitimate criticism by Restructure and Nquest, and he considered it as so negatively that all his readers can no longer post without his approval (talk about fear) and we three have been censored.

    He continues:
    I have disagreed with non-white commenters in the past on various things (since I don’t think that someone’s automatically right and I’m wrong just BECAUSE they’re non-white), but it wasn’t over any negative judgments on my part of something non-white that they disagreed with, nor was it because I wasn’t considering their differing points of view before disagreeing with their claims.

    regardless how he wants to turn it in self-defense, that doesn’t make it true. He is not able to understand and to emphasize with a different point of view. He perpetrates racism in many of his posts, works with stereotypes and the only important thing for him is not talking truth but getting ‘cookies’. Again – a very typical white behavior.

    Therefore I see no reason why I should not write about what Macon writes, when Macon again will come up with this typical white behavior. And the Macons of this world run against any proof by history: His belief in “changing hearts and minds” which he wants to instill in others. History tells us all, that this is the most unrealistic way trying to change violent and deadly systems.

    Comment by jwbe — November 5, 2008 @ 5:53 pm | Reply

  12. @Nquest
    Speaking of being “vicious”, I’ve had that thought before reading Wise and I believe I’ve told JW about it.

    you told me what?
    TW’s fascism article? Up to now I didn’t read it. I started but didn’t continue reading it. Sorry, today I am a little bit slow;-)

    Comment by jwbe — November 5, 2008 @ 6:40 pm | Reply

  13. JW, I was referring to a private message conversation we had a long time ago and it was more in the context of voicing or teetering on White self-hate.

    Comment by Nquest — November 5, 2008 @ 6:54 pm | Reply

  14. ah so, now I get it.

    Comment by jwbe — November 5, 2008 @ 6:56 pm | Reply


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